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The State of the Union — 13 Comments

  1. Well, I think a corporation is, by definition, a creation of the State. I don’t disagree that “a private, voluntary contract could be developed that defines a corporation”, but that is not the same entity as a State backed corporation. Perhaps peas in the same pod, but not identical peas. I don’t have time to read the entry that you linked to right now, but I will try to get to it in the next few days.

    • a corporation is, by definition, a creation of the State.

      Okay, I had to look it up. According to the first definition at the link I added to your quote, it is “granted a charter recognizing it as a separate legal entity”, presumably by a State. If this is the case, I think corporations should not exist, since I don’t believe that monopoly institutions should initiate force to grant some individuals special privileges at the expense of others.

      If we take the third definition at that link, “a group of people combined into or acting as one body”, I think it may be possible to have a contract that limits the liability of some parties in a contract. For example, you may start a community organization and place in the membership by-laws something to the effect of, “by associating with this organization, you agree that any liability for damage is limited to the declared assets of the organization, and you will not be entitled to any other assets of members, employees, or investors in the organization.” I might be wrong, though–upon further examination, I might be convinced that this may not be possible–I haven’t studied it enough.

      Bottom line: if something can only be sustained by initiating force, I am against it. Anything else people want to do with their lives, is (in my opinion) allowed.

      • I haven’t read a whole lot about the history of corporations, but if I’m not mistaken, in the early years in this country (say, 1790 – 1820 or so), there were considerable limits on the powers of corporations in favor of the people who lived in the area a corporation existed in. It was only gradually that powerful people altered the charters of the corporations to favor themselves, instead of the original beneficiaries. The Santa Fe railroad case in 1887 was the coup de grace, though corporations had been gaining power for quite a few years before that. Charters can specify anything that is desired but there is a reason that almost all corporations are incorporated in Delaware – lax oversight.

  2. what do you think about a Constitutional Amendment to strip corporations of their personhood?

    I think the crux of the matter (buried somewhere deep in the comments here) is whether a private, voluntary contract could be developed that defines a corporation, or whether a corporation can only exist when backed by the coercive tools of the state.

  3. I’m not really coming from the Left.

    Sorry–no offense intended! I think of you and I as converging on a similar political position while coming from different starting points–you from the Left and me from the Right (though I don’t think that either of us was very extreme to begin with). The terms Left/Right, Democrat/Republican, Liberal/Conservative, seems to have more to do with the group of people one associates with, though each group has straw man caricatures of the other so they can try to keep the group identity intact.

    I also thought you were already doing all the things I suggested for finding common cause with tea partiers (“unplugging from the grid, ignoring the mass media and finding ways to grow and protect your community from the power elite”). My point is, that you and I (and others who feel like we do) are in a position to channel the tea party energy away from railing against the current coercive state and towards building voluntary communities. Not that we have any particular moral duty to change their minds, but we can find allies among them to help with our voluntaryist projects.

    • No offense taken, Mark. But I would disagree with you that I’m not coming from an extreme starting point! . I am, indeed, dedicating my remaining years to living in peace – I’m through castigating the Tea Party crowd. It is really hard to argue with a rock, after all!

  4. I fear that the followers of Palin, Beck, Robertson, and Limbaugh have the upper hand in what passes for political discourse in this country.

    Jeff,

    About the time of our discussion over on DR, I lost all sense of direction for the Left/Right distinction in politics. I had always thought the distinction was artificial–speaking points for politicians to pay lip service to while doing whatever suited them–but these days, I can read an article and have little idea of whether its writer came from a traditional Left or Right wing position.

    I am starting to believe that the difference is mostly one of language. For example, what I have always called “capitalism” referred to a position that was inherently against corporate collusion, while you used the term to refer to this collusion. It is a sign that we should avoid any words that a politician has ever used!

    I saw a YouTube recently of a talking head saying, “The Tea Party movement has no leaders.” She, of course, thought this was a bad thing and that a leader should be coronated immediately and carried to Washington in a swell of electoral victory. I, on the other hand, thought it was saying something wonderful about people realizing that their discontent was precisely with rulers.

    It’s not the followers of Palin, et al you need to worry about as much as Palin herself. She’s a puppet, just like Obama, that is in love with the idea of being sooo… popular. She will give popular speeches in front of the cheering crowds, but will realize that if she wants to stay on the podium with the cameras focused on her, she needs something else. She needs the cooperation of media companies and she needs to assure those who run the political industry in Washington that their jobs are not really in trouble. So once the people who love her speeches carry her to Washington, she will act just like every other President has. Gaining access to power requires the cooperation of those already in power.

    The tea party movement grew from a core of people who latched on to Ron Paul in the 2008 campaign with his anti-war, pro-liberty position. These people drove the campaign, not Paul. Paul was simply wise enough to know that it confirmed his message. Where the tea party movement really got legs, though, was in the Bush bailouts just before the election. The problem with the bailouts could have been put in pure Left language: Billions of dollars were transferred from wage earners (through taxes and inflation) to corporate elites.

    As an aside, the official Ron Paul movement is having a crisis this week because, in the name of coalition building, the politicos running Campaign for Liberty aired a TV commercial supporting a pro-war candidate. See, for example, http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog.php?view=31963. The strong anarchist streak in the movement takes this as confirmation that politics, played even by the wonderfully Frodo-like Paul, is a rigged game.

    If you (as someone coming from the Left) talk politics with tea party people, then the language will drive you to immediate confrontation. But if you talk about unplugging from the grid, ignoring the mass media and finding ways to grow and protect your community from the power elite, you will find kindred spirits.

    • Well, as you know, Mark, I’m not really coming from the Left. You said the Left/Right distinction is not valid any longer early in your reply, so I’m not sure why you label me at the end. I agree with everything else in your comment, though! However, I don’t talk politics with tea party people – they are too angry and too unfocused in their rage to be able to have a conversation with.

      I do ignore the mass media – I don’t own a TV, for instance. Nor do I read the major paper here. Indeed, it is all about protecting ourselves against the power elite – what do you think about a Constitutional Amendment to strip corporations of their personhood? Perhaps the 5 radicals on the Supreme Court have done us all a big favor by really riling up the masses, suffering as they are from the excesses of Wall Street.

      We live in interesting times and I think, unfortunately, that it is going to get worse before it gets better. When this country gets its ass whipped in Afghanistan, maybe the people will finally rise up and demand an end to the endless militarism that infects this country. I know, if pigs could fly ….

  5. This is sobering reading, Jeff. I will never understand why Obama has gone in the direction he has—such a grave disappointment. And such a scary time for our country. I think, in particular, our downfall is due to (as Mr. Zaretsky says so articulately) the capitalist class that has almost NO sense of responsibility for the national interest or for the well-being of the less fortunate in our midst.

    God help us.

  6. This is too close for comfort! I’ve always said what happened in Germany could happen anywhere…including here…if conditions were right. Sadly, the conditions are getting to be right as your post points out so well.

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